Part 3–Independent Thinking: STRANGE BEDFELLOWS

Editor’s Note: This post concludes a three-part series. For previous posts see Part 1–Independent Thinking: PARTISAN NO MORE and Part 2–Independent Thinking: THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY/LATRINE NEEDS THE TY-D-BOL MAN .

Strange Bedfellows

~~By Grail Guardian

I met some great new friends the other day over at Uppity Woman’s place, courtesy of Hang Right Politics. Republicans. Republicans that think PUMAs are brave and patriotic. Many of them came to Uppity’s site and commented about our struggle of country before party, and it started me thinking about how much things have changed over the past political season.

I live in a rather conservative area of upstate NY, and frequently find myself at odds with many neighbors, co-workers, and family members when it comes to politics. This year, for the first time in, well, ever, I find myself having comfortable, agreeable conversations with these former opposites. I can sit in a restaurant and actually discuss the election and the economy without getting into a heated argument (just getting heated up in anger). I even watched the VP debate with my father, a long-time Republican who cringed when I registered as a Democrat in my 20’s.

Conversely, I find myself at odds (and often holding my tongue) with friends and associates I used to agree with almost all of the time. We used to mock conservatives and blame George W. Bush for just about everything. We believed in the same things, or so I thought, until this year. I find I risk a friendship here, a working relationship there by being honest about how I feel, yet these people who I had so much in common with have not the slightest compunction about offending me or even calling me a racist. Me! Can you believe it? Me, who has always had minority friends; me, who has always been tolerant of everyone, no matter how off the wall; me, who has defended the rights of others at my own expense and fought to make those who felt outcast welcomed and loved.

But I’ve also been noticing that I’m not the only one experiencing this phenomenon. The world has gone topsy-turvy with no real explanation. People blog that they’ve lost lifelong friends over this election. Twenty, thirty, even forty year Democrats have left the party and registered as Independents or even Republicans. People that had diaries on Daily KOS and other liberal sites long before I’d ever visited a blog were thrown off for stating the most innocuous of truths. The media I’d depended on for my entire lifetime for news suddenly offered nothing but commentary and opinions. Places like NBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN became mouthpieces for a single candidate long before it was prudent to do so, and I found myself unable to trust anything they reported. I was basically raised on broadcast media, and now I barely even watch TV or listen to radio other than music. (I lunge for the station buttons in my car whenever a DJ starts to speak, because I know they cannot avoid discussing politics.) I found myself reading Lyndon Larouche and agreeing with some of what I read. The Fox network became the least partisan news on TV. Conservative web sites featured stories I agreed with and often quoted.

Then the unthinkable happened. It became crystal clear that the Democratic Party had sold the country for a few shekels and didn’t want my vote anymore. They violated the rules (and I felt the law) on May 31, 2008 and didn’t care that their constituents didn’t like it. They bulldozed over Hillary Clinton like she was an unqualified poseur, and started to sound like Republicans of old when they attacked her and demanded she quit the race. Then on one life-altering day in early June, Hillary abandoned me and 18 million of my closest friends and quit. Worse still, she began to actually campaign for the evil she had sworn to defeat, namely Barack Hussein Obama. Well, I guess she had to keep her promise to campaign for him, but I can always count on the Big Dawg, right? Holy crap! Is that Bill Clinton, the man Barack Obama labeled a racist for the rest of his life, campaigning for this sham of a Democrat too? WTF? Wait, the next thing you’ll tell me is that Karl Rove is giving advice to Obama. Aw, come on now! This can’t be real! What’s that you say? The Republicans have selected a female Vice Presidential candidate that’s got more experience than the Democrat’s Presidential candidate? The Republicans are going to put the first woman in the White House? Huh? Wait, what do you mean the Democrats are calling her a C#$%???? Well at least we can count on the Republicans to launch all kinds of nasty 527 ads, right? What do you mean there aren’t any? But good old Bill O’Reilly will tear Obama to shreds, right? Right? What? O’Reilly shilling for Obama, McCain saying there’s nothing to fear with an Obama presidency??? What now, Democrats rigging the elections like the Republicans did in 2000 and 2004? What?? Who the hell is ACORN, anyway?

Suddenly there was a crisis on Wall Street. Isn’t this the one Hillary was talking about months ago? The one John McCain tried to fix years ago? Well that won’t go well, since we all know Bush caused the crisis, right? What? It was the Democrats that sank the economy and caused the sub-prime problems? And Hillary was tanking her own solution to the housing crisis just because McCain used it? Exactly what is going on here?

But I truly began to realize that I had somehow been transported from Kansas to Oz when I started to look at my former candidate (and current Senator) Hillary Clinton. Ok, at first I understood her fulfilling her campaign promises to “work my heart out” for the Democratic nominee. Heck, I even defended her. All any one had to do was watch her body language and read between the lines to see she was just doing her duty. But damn, does she have to keep doing it? She raised money for him; she stopped the roll call vote at the convention (which really pissed me off) to keep her own name out of nomination, and appeared wherever he asked her to go. Why is she still pushing for him? Why can’t she just support the down-ticket candidates? I agonized day after day, wanting to be loyal to the woman I felt was the most qualified Presidential candidate in years (if not decades), but she certainly wasn’t making it easy on me. Or any other PUMAs.

On Not Your Sweetie commenter Diana said:

What is Hillary doing? McCain gave her credit for the plan. She’s going to start chasing her own supporters off with this kind of stuff. Out and out lying for Obama? I can understand her having to campaign for Obama, I know she’s afraid of loosing her seat in the Senate, but this? Her supporters all know this was her plan. Most of us have seen the video.

Which caused Lee M. to note:

This is not the Hillary that I knew and loved.

And Cookiegramma observed:

It may not be the Hillary you knew and loved lee M., but it is now typical of the Democratic party that I am glad I quit.

Back at Uppity Woman, Typewriterstreaming said:

…After watching Hillary Clinton, (a women I have held in the utmost esteem) this morning on Fox TV stoop lower than ever and lecture PUMAS on the great qualities of Obama and to go further and say she is “disappointed” in Dems. who refuse to back the One,(she’s disappointed????)this post was really needed. I worked hard for Hillary’s campaign and after this morning will not vote for her next Senate bid. It is about Country first and I am shocked to see how far the Clinton’s can put themselves before everything. I am sorry to the people on this post that are Hillary supporters. I mean no offense to anyone. But I am stunned and outraged at what flies for the good of this country in Clinton land.


And the nail in the coffin came from Deadenders:

Hillary Clinton has done the 18 Million that voted for her a great disservice. This is a disgusting display of party before country.

She was lying in the primaries or lying now. Take you pick either way she is supporting a fraud and trying to get him elected.

I’m sick of fellow pumas trying to decipher body language and vocal tenor to say that she is just acting. Well the casual political observer doesn’t see that, and believes only what they hear in the past 5 mins.
They hear Hillary saying he’s the one, and will vote for the bastard because of it.

Hillary has failed us.

Hillary has failed us. Wow. Now I was starting to hear the self-reproaching words of people like Kathy from Hang Right Politics:

Because today, I’m taking myself to the woodshed. I’m kicking my @$$. Why? For being foolish, for getting distracted, for forgetting that my country comes first.

And our own Kenosha Marge

Partisanship forces people to hang onto the most outrageous nonsense in an effort to avoid admitting they’re wrong. Some will refuse to see what is indisputable simply because they don’t want to see.

As much as I don’t want to believe it, I have to start questioning Senator Clinton’s motivations here. She started a movement, and then refused to leave the Democratic Party to lead the millions that gathered in her name. She promised to fight for us, and she did for a while, but then she didn’t anymore. Not even for me, a resident of New York (she voted for the Wall Street bailout fiasco, even though she knew it wasn’t the right solution). She fought misogyny in the primaries, and while she refused to be Obama’s attack dog on Sarah Palin simply because McCain selected a woman, did she really do enough to denounce the treatment her own beloved party gave to Governor Palin? The party she loved more than me and my 18 million friends?

This is a difficult call for me. I’ve supported Hillary vigorously since she was First Lady. I was thrilled when she came to New York for her Senate run. I defended her voraciously throughout the campaign, despite personal attacks and being called a racist until the word lost its meaning. But the words of Deadenders keep echoing in my head. “She was lying in the primaries or lying now.”

So here’s the million-dollar question: Can I vote for Hillary Clinton again?

I can only think of one answer: Country before personal loyalties.

52 Responses

  1. At least there’s no palimony.

  2. I can only imagine the angst it caused you to write this essay Grail. I can imagine because of the angst it causes me to agree with it.

    Once again it is made abundantly clear to us that politicians nearly always put their party before their country. Nearly every one of them that we thought was somehow different proves us wrong.

    Hillary is now enabling and condoning the misogny and race-baiting that was used against her, and us. Just another damn politician.

  3. Fabulous post!! It got me all riled up again! haha

    You are so right, ad it is so heartbreaking.

    I am disapointed in Hill, Bill, Lanny, Wolfson, Terry, Ed…. Hell, even Biden is doing it.

    They are now attacking McCain/Palin, for the very things they attacked Obama for.

  4. old91A10,

    I guess there is always a bright side! ROFL!
    Thanks for the morning laugh!


    I wrestled with this for a couple of days. One of the things that made me decide to go for it was your Part 1 to this series.
    Thanks for the dose of courage.

  5. You needed no courage from me since you had the guts to go further than I did. That courage will be needed now since I suspect we will take a pounding from both sides.

  6. The one thing that bothers the H@ll out of me are all the so called ‘friends’ of Hillary who are now writing pieces trying to blame her. When Sarah Palin was announced as the VP for the GOP it was: Hillary you had better get over there and fix those darn 18 million cracks you made in that glass ceiling. If Obama loses it will be all your fault and get out there and campaign for him, tell everyone to over look everything (Rev. Wright etc), or else.

    I don’t recall Ted Kennedy being put out to campaign for Carter, nor all the hostility that is placed on Hillary. 😦

    GOOD LORD! I guess she should have done what they wanted, dropped out in January and apologized for having the sheer will, experience and trust of the American people and daring to run in the first place. When will the Democrats really foster good will for the BEST CANDIDATE THAT JUST HAPPENED TO BE A WOMAN: HILLARY CLINTON.

  7. Woman Voter, I couldn’t agree more. She was the best candidate and she was sandbagged by her own party and made out to be a racist, lying piece of crap by the “man” she ran against.

    Now she campaigns for the “man” who made her and her husband out to be racist. She campaigns for the “man” who trashed her husbands legacy.

    He, the useless piece of tripe that denigrated all that she and her husband worked for a stood for had to cheat, lie and steal to bring her down. Now she campaigns for him. She is “disappointed in those of us who won’t support him.

    He couldn’t diminish her he my eyes. She could and has. Her run is over. It’s time to move on with what is, not with what could have been.

  8. I’ll chime in with this….Hillary blew her chance to show her “leadership” when she decided to grovel at Obama’s feet. She could have ended her “unity” business early and not still be touting Obama as the best thing since white bread (and we all know how THAT perception has changed.)

    She has tainted herself…or is it that she’s just gone back to being what she rally was? Just another party hack…I have to admit that I was NOT a Hillary supporter for many reasons related to that and came to her by default as the process unfolded.

    What I come away with from all this is my total disenchantment with the Democratic Party as a whole…I de-registered back in May and am not going back…I had always been an “independent” who voted Democrat prior to 2000, but now I’m picking and choosing a lot more carefully…and omitting voting for certain offices if I feel I must!

  9. Grail, thanks for this excellent essay. I am a PUMA who left the Dems after more than 40 years of dedicated party-line voting. It has cost me friends and family, but my new friends and a new freedom from rigid political ideology has made it very much worthwhile. It’s not easy, but an old dog can learn new tricks. Even if Obama Comet crashes into the earth as predicted, a new coalition of citizens who put country before party will work tirelessly to pick up the ;pieces and rebuild our fractured society. In spite of the dark days looming ahead, these are wonderful times.

  10. I also questioned what the Hades Bill and Hill were doing to help the great O. But I started thinking from the party loyalist view and could see why they may be doing it. Staying visible is very important in politics. The media was only covering the O but people were getting tired of him, so there was an opportunity for Hillary to go out and talk about her issues not O’s. Bill has been hilarious with his “Obama will be a great president, but so would the national hero and honorable man John McCain”.

    They both are looking at this a huge disaster. If O looses the party will have a gangland style war to clean out the old bosses. If O wins, he is going to be blamed for the economic meltdown because many people will forget Bush quickly as most unpleasant memories are. I predict a Republican Congress in 2011 if O wins.

    I guess what I am saying is that I see Pres and Sen Clinton picking up the pieces of the Democratic party and not particularly just for her to run again. It is much more difficult to form a new political party than to take over (or retake over) an existing one. O is going to have far fewer allies than he realizes. I backed off from the Obama thugs last fall. I kept my money, my energy, and my powder dry.

  11. kenoshaMarge, you must be reading my mind. I just couldn’t find the words to express the sadness I have been feeling. Every time Hillary or Bill gives a speech for Obama, I could cry. If they expect us to believe in what they are saying now are we to disbelieve everything they said about him during the primaries?

    Hillary can be disapponted in me for not following her request to turn to Obama – it doesn’t matter anymore. And each time she speaks for him it matters even less.

    I’m also disappointed in McCain for saying Obama is not someone we should fear in the presidency. Doesn’t he realize he is cutting his own throat by trying to be “Mr. Nice Guy”?

    I will still vote McCain/Palin – what other choice do we have? I will still try to convince as many of my family members and friends as I can to vote McCain/Palin as I still he is our best choice in this election to save our country.

    I moved on a while ago but didn’t voice my inner feelings for several reasons. One being, I did not feel I had the right to say anything about Hillary’s about face when I knew so many people still had a deep loyalty towards her.

    Thank you, Grail Guardian, for having the guts that I didn’t have to say what I thought.

    I hope when this election is over all of us who feel this way can either work to clean up the Democratic Party or start another of our own that will stand for the things that the party we lost USED to stand for. For over half my life the Democratic Party personified my country for me. No more. As long as Dean, Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Dodd, Kerry, and others like them play such a big part in the party I want no part of it.


  12. This has been a historic election for 3 reasons. First African American as a serious candidate, First woman as a serious candidate and the Republican that the RNC and social conservative base would not support.

    I was not surprised the see McCain pick Sarah Palinas his running mate – there are very few politicians today who are successful when they challenge their own party. It’s usually a career ending move. In fact, I can only think of a few who survive when they don’t toe the line and give in to the “machine”. McCain has done it for years, suffered for it for years and yet – he survives and doesn’t give up. Palin did it in Alaska – she is not joking about the “good old boy network” up there. Joe Lieberman was defeated by his “party” and then went out as an independent for the people.

    All these people are now working together. IF McCain wins, the win is most dangerous to the Republican “social base” – the enire RNC will change if he is in charge — it’s why many of them hope he loses so they can sweep in after a disastrous Obama term. How idiotic – they totally ignore what Obama and the corrupt radical left can do to this country in 4 short years.

    I’ve been convinced for years now that both parties are totally broken and did not see much hope. The radicals on each side managed to gain power and the vast majority of us in the middle were just left out. I now see a real chance for a new direction if McCain should win. Perhaps he can bring some change to the RNC, perhaps the Dean/Soros/ACORN crowd will be pushed aside in the DNC. I’ve watched the Ron Paulers work against the GOP – they failed because of their own radicalism. I watched the PUMA’s come together and stay together. The seeds of the PUMA movement give me the first “hope” I’ve seen in years.

    It’s the first time in my long life that I’ve donated money to a political movement – the first time I’ve seen a group that was willing to go against “party” in favor of “country”. A group that said we are not going to take this anymore because “country” matters more than party.

    I continue to believe that there are millions of Americans just like me. Those who will quietly go to the polls on Nov. 4 and vote for “country”.

  13. This essay has been the topic of conversation, unwillingly, in our household for a few weeks now. Yes, the political world has turned upside down, but I’ve never been much of a follower, anyway.

    I knew it had all reached a bad point when, last thursday, after the debate, Hillary came on tv to say how BO had won three for three, and I turned her off.

    I have never turned Hillary off. I understood, at the beginning, her need to stay in the party, in order to work in the Senate. I even understood her saying 2012 wasn’t going to happen. They would want her to say that, to keep us from using a single McCain term as a stepping stone for Hillary 2012. But…

    But… it has gone too far, and I will back the candidate that wants to help my country. I will back the woman who stands and fights, and says, “Bring it on, I can take it.” All they have done is make me respect Palin more. She comes across as someone I can argue with about the points we disagree on, and still walk away smiling.

    I can’t argue with Hillary anymore, because I know she knows better. All that does is make me wonder how she can say the things she is saying.

  14. Yesterday morning I woke up – quite literally thinking, “We have to clean out everyone in Congress (save Feingold) – EVERYONE.” To my amazement, there was Part II of the trilogy when I finally had the chance to get to my computer. Ty-D-BOL man and all.

    This morning, yet another brave and thoughtful post from Grail Guardian completing the trilogy begun by Marge.

    I have read all the comments. I wish I had the writing skills – and yes the thinking skills demonstrated by all here. Because all I can do is echo. Echo the anger, the feelings of betrayal and mistrust and utter bewilderment I have read here today and throughout the week.

    Indeed the world is upside-down and topsy-turvy. I just turned on my computer to read that “GOP Sen. Susan Collins Decries anit-Obama robocalls”,0,782963.story .

    WTH is happening in this country? We have a fraud running for president who is and has open associations with terrorists both here and abroad, and the Republicans, and Democrats are saying “Let’s just stop talking about this” !! Are we now about to enter a new world order, with everyone on board for a very bumpy ride, and pretend it isn’t happening???

    I am simply apoplectic and feel as though my brain is in a spin cycle. or the rest of the country is and I am merely an observer.

    This is simply “Shock and Awe” on a different but even more dangerous scale. (imho) More dangerous because we are simply expected to go along with this as if it were the normal and usual thing to do. Different only in it’s (apparently) bloodless nature.

    I have to go. I have to get off my computer and out of here before my head explodes.

  15. Leslie, you are NOT just an echo…contact me if you want to contribute your thoughts in a post rather than a comment…

  16. This entire series has been spot on. It captures the sadness and the very real dissapintment in those we looked up to so well. I’ve been working on a letter to Hillary to express a lot of these same feelings. Who knows she may even read it.


  17. I went through a very emotional crisis over all of this. But when Hillary endorsed Him I made my mind up. At first, I admit that I was royally pissed at Hillary. And like some of the others quoted here I agree that I have heard enough of these excuses for what she is doing now. She made a choice and so have I. And while I have done my best not to say anything bad about her I cannot say with any honesty that I have the same respect I used to have.

    I also used to feel good about Joe Biden. But like Hillary, Joe suddenly boarded the Hoodwink Express as if all the things he said when running for President meant nothing.

    It is definitely a topsy turvy political world we live in now. When I was at Sarah’s rally yesterday I felt totally at ease with people that a few months ago I considered the enemy. Totally at ease and in most cases in absolute agreement with them. I still cringe when they bring up Reagan but I figure that a small price to pay for choosing Country First.

  18. GG,

    So sad.
    So true.

  19. BeBe is right. Both Hillary and Bill are in a terrible position, and are simply doing what they must. If Obama wins, he will certainly screw the pooch and the repubs will come roaring back. There will need to be someone left standing to pick up the pieces worth saving of the Democratic party. That someone is Hillary. Ditto if Obama loses — Hillary (and Bill) must be in position to take our (former) party back and lead us to victory in 2012. They are both doing what they must and no more. Remember, under either scenario, Hillary will need at least some of the kool aid drinkers in her coalition. She won’t be able to get them if she can’t credibly say she did everything she could to get Obama elected. So get a grip here, fellow PUMAs. Hillary knows she isn’t going to change the minds of PUMAs (or other independent thinkers) now. Anyone inclined to listen to her and slink back into what passes for our former party has already done that. So we’re a safe group to lecture. How Hillary really could hurt the republican ticket is by turning on Palin as a woman and feminist as so many have done. That is the one request she has continually refused from the Obama camp, the one she knows *would* make a difference. Likewise, the one way Bill could really hurt the republican ticket is by attacking Palin as unqualified to be VP. That Bill has refused to do (even though he took a real shot at Obama on the same issue of lack of qualifications). Both Hillary and Bill have steadfastly refused to attack Palin in the one way the Obama camp really needed, and indeed Bill actually said quite positive things about her in that time when Palin needed to get her feet back under her, and did it — of all places — among that vicious pack on The View. That forbearance and, indeed, encouragement, helped make it possible for Palin to get steady on her feet again under the vicious media attack and come roaring back. If the repubs do pull this out, you will be able to trace that victory back, in part, to this act of courage by both Clintons. Hang in there PUMAs, we can’t afford to lose our bearings in these last difficult weeks. Just take deep breaths everytime Hillary (or Bill) say something favoring Obama that makes you cringe and remember they are speaking to the already converted in order to protect our flank for the future, which will come, despite the seemingly endless nature of this horrible year. Better yet, listen again to McCain’s comments at the Al Smith dinner. The reason his comedy act about the Clintons working secretly for him to win worked so well, is the secret to most most successful comdey, a firm basis in the truth.

  20. I am not an american. But I feel “jilted”, as if she had lied to the 18 million people who supported her. I HAD admired Hillary for she said she had stand for. But now all I see is…she’s making a fool of herself. What a waste!!!

    She doesn’t have to be all out for Obama the fraud, who had played her out of presidential nomination, unfairly. Doesn’t she realize how bad she’d look pandering votes for Obama whom she knew deep down…not fit to lead??? Is Hillary so desparate to stick to a Dem Party that has become un-democratic and turning socialist. What’s the deal here???

    Indeed, it’d be a sad day in America if Obama were to win this election. He will set back 200 years of freedom & democracy into communism the next 4 years. Unless someone bring him down fast, the next 2 weeks.

    I hope & pray for McCain/Palin to win this election so badly, not because it “served” Obama arrogant face RIGHT, but because I feel McCain/Palin are the right choices to bring sanity into white house.

    oh another observation, Obama & his thugs are making this election cycle like that it’s done in third world countries where dictators run the country. I live in one such country. It’s not always pretty to live in I tell ya.

    Just 2 cents from ASIAN PUMA

  21. Some powerful words on this thread, and I hear them.

    I’ve been pretty quiet on this issue, out of respect for the Clinton supporters who gave me a home when I was driven out of “post-progressive” sites for refusing to join the blind BO love-fest. I figured Clinton supporters had enough to deal with, and I wouldn’t start going after HRC’s behavior in their online homes.

    But it’s precisely because Hillary Clinton galvanized a political awakening in me that I can’t blindly follow her or anyone else. I still admire her tenacity during the primaries, and while I wasn’t an initial supporter of hers, I came to admire her immensely. However, her actions now are irresponsible at best, and she’s *erasing* the hateful misogyny, MSM pandering for her opponent, endless opportunistic accusations of racism, and the bullyboy frenzy of BO supporters. Not to mention the actions of her own party.

    Maybe she’s okay with it all, and that’s great for her. I’m not okay with it all.

    When I left the Democratic party and became a registered independent, I meant it. When I said I would never join a party again, but honor principle over party, I meant it. When I said I would never be a follower or a blind ideologue, I meant it. I feel no need to justify the behavior of any politician, or excuse it, or pretend they have “no choice.” If we’re attacked from all sides, so be it — I think those of us still standing and not swayed by the crowd are pretty damn tough.

    Hillary Clinton, and the vile treatment of her, may have triggered this movement, but I (and many others, it seems) are in a new place now.

  22. Alice said:

    When I left the Democratic party and became a registered independent, I meant it. When I said I would never join a party again, but honor principle over party, I meant it. When I said I would never be a follower or a blind ideologue, I meant it. I feel no need to justify the behavior of any politician, or excuse it, or pretend they have “no choice.” If we’re attacked from all sides, so be it — I think those of us still standing and not swayed by the crowd are pretty damn tough.

    I agree with every word you wrote and it says exactly how I feel.

  23. i view her statements the same way that John McCain views giving up information to his N. Vietnamese captors under torture. it’s shameful, i’m sure they both hate themselves for it, but it’s a matter of survival.
    i have the luxury of free will. Hillary doesn’t, unless she wants to throw away her career. there are no 2nd chances for old women.
    i don’t give a rats ass what she says. she doesn’t have the power you attribute to her to change minds.
    i’m voting for McCain.
    Obama is not her fault.
    i THANK her everyday for motivating women to get off their asses & organize themselves instead of fighting EACH OTHER.
    i’ve met some wonderful inspiring ppl in the process.
    you are one, Grail.

  24. After I saw Hillary on Fox I just lost all respect for her and now I cannot vote for her again. I will not be voting for any democrats this year. Why? Because they all sold us out and worse than selling us out, they sold out America. This isn’t something small. This is a big deal. Country before party. I am voting straight republican this year and forever more and so are all my family and friends. We cannot let any democrat have any power again since this proves how corrupt they are. And not only corrupt but none of them have any common sense. I don’t want anyone in government who at the very least, has any common sense.

  25. Oops, should have said “has no common sense”.

  26. keep in mind it wasn’t just the Dems that sold us out.
    Karl Rove did his part by helping Brazila with DNC fund raising for her ONE.
    wish i had a better Repub choice in FL. the opposition up for House seat racebaited the incumbant for not supporting Obama. Hastings is a piece of work.
    they’re all either crooks or perverts here. Bill Nelson has done his best to stay clean. He’s a good guy.
    one comfort if O gets elected is that Hillary will be in the Senate. i don’t think she’ll be restraining herself either.

  27. I’d like to throw this question out, as I’ve done on other sites. If anyone would like to take a guess, I’d be appreciative.

    How many of the 18 million Hillary supporters will vote for McCain?

    For myself, I offer the following. I live in NYC, and I’m a republican. Depending on the issue, I can actually hold a very liberal point of view.

    While I don’t agree with some of Senator Clinton’s positions, I can’t believe that the democrats, who have the reputation of being “nice” and “civil” turned out to be filled with so much hatred. The way the Clintons were treated during the primary was an absolute disgrace, and anyone who bad mouthed them should have a similar experience happen to them.

    Regarding the Clinton’s support of the democrtaic party nominee, I wouldn’t read too much into it. Hell, if the democratic machine can dig up all kinds of dirt on a regular working guy (the kind that the dems used to own), who knows what kind of tricks they pulled on the Clintons.

    Lastly, all of this “digital brown shirt” activity, the ACORN nusiness, and the voter rigging in Ohio by Ms. Brunner has left people with a bad taste in their mouths about what an Obama presidency might portend. Given the thuggery of his supporters, I honestly believe that alot of people are staying quiet, and will vote country/conscience on November 4.

    By the way, my own feeling about how Hillary feels can best be gleaned by watching the youtube of McCain at the Al Smith dinner. I can’t help shaking the feeling that the Clintons know EXACTLY what they are doing, and know that their best chance lies with a McCain presidency in ’08.

    Thanks for everyon’e patience.

  28. here’s your chance to be creative, girls.
    right after the carpet was pulled from under Hillary’s feet in May, Claire McCaskill (AKA Roz in some circles) & her female gorillas shoved a chocolate dukey covered olive branch in our faces if you remember the video. feel free to add you comments & thoughts to commemorate your appreciation of the Party that left us. in case mine were not approved, enjoy:

    “I’ve been waiting for f*ng change from the Democratic Party for more than 30 years. WHERE THE H IS IT????
    too f*ng bad my party left me.

    PS: thanks for nothin CLAIRE. in the words of Madeleine Albright, there’s a special place reserved for women like you.”

  29. Fantastic post – why did I find it so late?
    I didn’t watch Hillary on Fox – or anything else for that matter since she conceded. Except for her speech at the convention.
    And of course the one that really matter: stopping the roll call. I was in a chat at CH and I remember posting: “That was my vote you just s*t on!”
    I have been a supporter – but on a less personal level than most here. She was the best candidate, and also the one persecuted by the media.
    After she was robbed, she quietly became an accomplice to the theft of my vote – and there’s nothing in the world to excuse that.
    Dissing McCain’s plan (her own) was worse than he party BS she was spewing for BO before – because she was now playing with the lives of people for the sake of her political career.
    But emotionally, as a principle she lost me when she stopped the roll call.
    Will I ever vote for her? Depends on the choice. I voted for Tasini in the 2006 primaries for Senate.
    I won’t vote FOR anyone in this election – just AGAINST someone.
    So, I won’t make any plans for the future.

  30. I played in politics for years, and there are some things that you can just look at and see. One is that BO is Shaka Zulu. No, I don’t mean racially, Shaka had one primary rule, ” never leave an enemy alive.” He can’t have Hillary in any condition to challenge him again. He has enough power now to keep her, and anyone else who crosses him, in their place.

    I do not believe that BO will allow Hillary any chance at actually making a difference in the Senate. BO is a no holds barred type of guy, and he will not allow anyone else to share the spotlight.

    Democrats across the board are ticked off that they sold out to him hoping to garner some cash for their runs, and there has been nothing. This is all about him, and if he wins, no one, not Hill or Bill, or anyone will have room to speak out loud.

    In love with his own voice, in love with his own reflection. It isn’t hard to see.

    That is one of the reasons that I always felt that Hillary should have pushed harder. She has nothing to lose. He will never forgive her for running against him. He will never give her the chance to move up, even in the Senate. And she will be lucky to not be pushed out by her party come next election time.

  31. Thanks to all for your diverse thoughts and kind words. The wonderful thing about the PUMA movement is that you can express any thoughts and everyone will listen and contribute, building on your words and feelings.

    I hope after all we’ve been through together that most of you understand what a serious Clinton supporter I have been. I have been where some of you are; defending her need to protect herself, her party, her husband’s legacy. I’ve made the same arguments and convinced myself that Hillary is only doing what’s necessary to save the Democratic party.

    But there’s the rub. I no longer think the Democratic party has anything left worth saving. It’s trash as far as I’m concerned, and I too will never go back. So Hillary is selling her soul in order to save something of no value. And in the process, she’s contributing to an evil movement that threatens the country I love. The country I believed Hillary loved. Ok, that was harsh, and I guess she still believes in the USA, but right now I can’t help but think of her as an enabler for a pending Coup d’Etat. She has the power to shift a large portion of the electorate (albeit not most PUMAs, I agree), and she is refusing to use that power for the benefit of the nation. All she has to do is refuse to play Obama’s game. She doesn’t need to say a word against him. But by saying what she’s saying, she will influence people without the will or knowledge of PUMAs.

    And I think Edgeoforever is right; Clinton is endangering the welfare of the American people for the sake of either her career or her worthless party. Either way, we lose.

    I have great respect for everything Hillary Clinton has accomplished. She will likely go down in history as a great woman. But that is up to her, and what she chooses to do next. I just want her to have respect for what we have and still are going through .

  32. I agree it’s disheartening to hear Hillary vouch for The One…but I have to believe she and Bill are doing it for US and not Themselves.

    They could throw him (and therefore us) out the window now, keep their pride and never look back…so TAKE THAT…but then

    where would that really leave us?

  33. If Hillary and Bill Clinton think that supporting Obama is for the good of the country then I quite honestly have been wrong in my support of them for all these years.

    To believe that the kind of politics Obama and his thugs play is good for any country, any party is so wrong I cannot believe any one, let only the very smart Clintons could actually think that.

  34. I too loved Hillary but as I tell everyone its not about Hillary anymore. Its about our country. maybe this has caused some people to question the validity of voting Party but instead looking at candates positions and theircharacter.

  35. You are spot on Eileen! And you’re right, it’s not about Hillary anymore. It’s about what’s best for our country and it’s people.

  36. Yes, and if anyone knows the true nature of Obama’s intent it is Hillary and Bill Clinton. They knew things at the beginning of the primaries that took us months to ferret out.

    I guess in retrospect I have to say my real disillusionment occurred on May 31, 2008. I buried it for a while, but inside I was devastated that Hillary allowed the RBC to do what it did with so little fight. Somewhere deep inside I think I’ve always known that if she had called bull$h!t on them that day, there was just the tiniest possibility that the DNC would have been too embarrassed to continue their ruthless attack on the American people. I know, I know – it probably wouldn’t have made a difference in what they did, but it certainly would have affected what we did, and probably what much of America thought about the Obama campaign. And it certainly would have changed the road for Sarah Palin if Hill had stood up and shouted “Foul!” at the top of her lungs, rather than the meek whisper she uttered through Harold Ickes.

    The bottom line for me was this: Hillary took an incredible gamble that McCain would be able to defeat Obama. If he loses, she’s there to pick up the pieces and rebuild the party from the ground up. That does not necessarily translate into a 2012 Presidential run or victory for her (lets not forget that CDS still is rampant, and there are many Republicans that do not like her, justified or not. If Obama wins, Hillary is done as a politician. She will lose her Senate seat (Obama has already taken steps to ensure that – he knows exactly what he’ll do to humiliate her, and so do we), she will lose her party, and she will lose her country. Now I understand personal ambition and that after all she’s been through she has no wish to lose it all. But it’s obvious by now that she can be defeated (personally, I still believe Karl Rove had quite a bit to do with it). So why would anyone that believes so passionately in this country (as each and every PUMA does) risk so much, when she could stop this thing in it’s tracks by releasing what she has on Obama or simply by shutting up? The only answer I can come up with is that she is not putting country first.

    That being said, as someone so eloquently put it, it ain’t over till the lady in the pantsuit says it is. So I am going to keep an open mind for the next 2 weeks to see what develops. I am hoping against hope that she is going to unleash the dogs and stop Obama for once and for all (and I believe she has the information at her disposal to do so, and has had it since last year). But even if she does, her Democratic party has still lost big. Many PUMAs will never go back, even if they vote for Democratic candidates. The Rove camp will have a party for years eating off the carnage left behind this season. And, perhaps most poignantly, don’t you think most Americans will question why this information wasn’t revealed during the primaries? We’re talking Joe Six Pack here. I think Joe will be pissed off that he had to go through the turmoil and stress of this election for something that the Clintons held back on. Hillary’s patriotism will be questioned, and we’ll be right back to “she’s only in it for herself”.

    Hillary was screwed. America was screwed. Most women reading this post have been screwed in a similar fashion in the workplace (and many men as well). Life is not fair. Hillary was left ,after the cards were all dealt, with 2 choices (and the Presidency wasn’t one of them): Be a Patriot or be a politician. She did not choose wisely.

    I cannot honestly say for certain that i would have chosen differently. I have never been in her position. But I do know this; every PUMA has put their own safety and comfort on the line for the cause of country before party. We have lost big as well, some more notably than others. When the chips have been down, we have fought with every tool at our disposal (even if we suspected it was a futile fight). We have stood by each other. We have explained our positions honestly and with integrity in a public forum and then taken the heat for our beliefs. We have shifted our opinions as new facts were revealed, and acknowledged and apologized when we were wrong. We have credited each other when someone touched upon a new truth, and continued to evolve as political beings and human beings. We have shared our great passion for America in a manner not seen (in my opinion) since the original suffrage movement or perhaps even since the civil war. And through it all, we have never wavered in placing the importance of this election before our own personal lives, our families and jobs at times, and almost always before our own individual needs.

    Hillary Clinton has not passed that test in my mind. She is not a PUMA. She can still join, but that is up to her. We would welcome her with open arms.

  37. If Hillary started speaking the truth at this point, I would listen with an open mind!

  38. GRL~
    I heard Hillary on the radio this morning. Even her voice sounded forced and hardened. The words were more difficult for me to hear than when she stopped the roll call. She was, of course, supporting BO. She sounded as if there were a gun to her head. (that was my fantasy, of course) It was all about “saving” the nation by voting for obama.
    I had to turn off the radio. I can’t listen to this any more. I don’t know how anyone can.
    There are days when I think I can’t even vote. And then I remind myself that it is my duty…. country before party… I’m only voting for one downticket Dem now and that wasn’t my plan a few months ago.

  39. I could never vote for a Clinton again..unless it was the devil himself running against them.One thing that this has shown me is…the “demoncratic” party doesn’t give a darn about us. Had it not been for Palin..a person just like us..and I believe she deeply cares and will do a good job..I would not have voted. I don’t think I am wrong when I say…McCain cares very much what happens to this country..and the two of them will knock themselves out trying to solve the problems we now see.

  40. Gosh, I’m so disheartened to read how you all feel. And I completely empathize with you all since I felt this way when I first got into politics nearly 20 years ago, and then I attended my first state convention. Suffice it to say, I got over any naivete pretty quickly. Not that I’m saying you all are naive; of course, you aren’t, just really broken spirited and mad that Hillary is being a tough Democrat trying to win an election for her party.

    But just a couple of my thoughts to share…

    I’ve been trying to remember that Hillary is first and foremost a lawyer. Lawyers have a weird combo of competitiveness and ability to waver between two positions. I feel that since Hillary has been put in the position to campaign for Obama, she must do it with all the vigor and passion of a defense attorney trying to win her first case. And as such, she may be going “overboard” in her support of him, not aware of the damage to her own integrity in the process.

    The other thing is… I really don’t think Obama will win this election. With still 2 weeks away, I’m seeing the federal lawsuit against Obama, and the reports from Jerome Corsi about to unleash a hailstorm of crap at the Obama campaign. I really don’t think they are prepared to deal with the October surprise. Joe 6-pack wasn’t it. It’s got to be something bigger, and I really feel that the Kenya connection is going to blow up. If Michelle Obama really did contact the African Press Intl than this story is about to explode any minute. But, I’ve also been told its a ruse.

    I think that McCain and Palin do care for this country, but I’m still trying to keep in mind that they are politicians. And politicians although they may care can still get caught up in the politicking. Bill and Hillary are the same, they only have power in so much as they still have access to the power sources. I feel that they are biding their time and are waiting for the powder keg to blow.

  41. Sorry to disagree, when I agree with some of what you say, but speaking only for myself, I’m not “broken-spirited” at all. I’m pi$$ed off. There is a huge difference.

    I understand your concept of a trial lawyer. I just don’t buy it. We didn’t “hire” Senator Clinton to be a defense lawyer for Obama. We were trying to “hire” her to represent us. Once she didn’t get the job, for whatever reason, was it really necessary to keep advocating for the person the “cheated” her out of that position? Many of us think she chose party before country. And we are not pleased.

    Broken-spirited? Sound like the O-bots claim that we’re still grieving. Kinda insulting, don’t ya think?

  42. Yeah,not broken,either…MAD AS HELL…

  43. When “l’affaire Lewinksy” hit the airwaves, I never worried about Hillary Clinton. She looked strong, never seemed like a poor l’il victim of her nasty ol’ husband, and in my mind she was probably handling things very well behind closed doors.

    When she was gang-banged by the DINO’s and the media this past winter, I became indignant on her behalf, and though of her not as a victim or martyr, but an exceptionally strong woman fighting the Mongol hordes, and admired her for it, and stood behind her completely.

    Obama has done the unthinkable. He has turned her into a victim, the abused spouse, the woman down the street who always explains away her bruises and black eyes with stories about falling and tripping. On one hand, I feel sorry for people like that. On the other hand, they inspire a certain amount of contempt.. I don’t like feeling sorry for Hillary. I don’t like listening to her excuses, knowing it’s a load of BS. But mostly, I detest the abuser. But like the couple down the street, I can’t do anything about the abusive SOB if his victim won’t even try to stand up to him.

    The whole situation makes me ill. And angry. I keep hoping I’ll get to apathy — life would be so much easier.

  44. My mother told me that FOX showed a clip yesterday of Biden swatting Clinton as she turned to leave a stage….can’t place when or where…but, she should have whacked him back!!!

    She tolerates way too much…

  45. tle,

    I agree with your analogy completely. She’s like an abuse victim protecting her rat bastard abuser.

    I don’t agree with the apathy comment (I know it’s just snark), though. Apathy is what got us here in the first place. We can never allow ourselves to not care about every move Washington makes again. We must continue to hold their feet to the fire. We have no one to blame but ourselves, and we can count on no one to fix it but ourselves.

  46. tle,

    I agree with your analogy completely. She’s like an abuse victim protecting her rat bastard abuser.

    I don’t agree with the apathy comment (I know it’s just snark), though. Apathy is what got us here in the first place. We can never allow ourselves to not care about every move Washington makes again. We must continue to hold their feet to the fire. We have no one to blame but ourselves, and we can count on no one to fix it but ourselves.

  47. Sorry for the double post – browser acting snotty…

  48. Browsers will do that Grail. 🙂 I would like to show them who’s boss but I suspect they all ready know. 😦

  49. yes, there are days when I feel “broken in spirit”, but mostly I am really angry, and feel betrayed (not by Hillary, but by the Dems) and bewildered (by the complicity seen in the MSM).

    Today isn’t one of them. Today, I am just mad as hell. (sorry for copying you ia, but that’s how I feel.)

  50. Personally, I can understand not liking what Sen. Clinton has to do as her position as a major player and U.S. Senator in the Democratic Party in her efforts to support BO. My thesis is that she is a major player who I want to be on my side, but more importantly she wants to be on my side.

    Would she be tasked to garner support all over the country for BO if she weren’t. It’s not Kennedy, Frank, Pelosi, Reid or any other Democratic party LEADER who is has as much influence and power (still) as Clinton does. Tho’ It may be diminished as is Pres. Clinton’s, none of them could have gotten 18 million votes of confidence even if they were running against GW Bush. I don’t know if negative feelings, or just fear, makes memories of well established positives things forgotten but Sen. Clinton’s and Pres. Clintons position of influence in U.S. politics wasn’t attained the way BO’s was. It was earned by doing things in the best interest of the people of this country, not short term interest but long term. Those people with very short memories, who didn’t appreciate what they’ve done for the country, didn’t care for their help, or for whatever reason, are the some of the same ones who voted for BO, supported all the rotten things done and said to/about the Clintons, abandoned the principles of the Dem. Party, and suppressed/ supported the suppression of protest by anyone against those actions. Again, if she was not powerful enough or influential enough (still) or formidable, she would be nothing in their eyes.

    I trust her and Bill because of what they’ve done for the last…going on two decades of public service. That isn’t washed away because of the latest challenge that they have to weather, whether it’s against their own party or the repubs. I think Bill worked with the Repubs to get things done, not because he loved what they wanted to do or that he didn’t care about his country. These were repubs who wanted to skin him alive any and every chance they got. The same with Hillary. I would say it’s ‘Purpose of the public, and country before Party’ that influenced their fight against the folks, Dems, Repubs, OB camp, who don’t have the public’s interest at heart. She can’t do anything for anyone, except herself, if she falls on her sword.

    I want to say “F123 your feelings of betrayal!”, “She didn’t betray you, you betrayed her just because you chose victim-hood instead of courage when you were scared and panicked”, …but feelings matter. Feelings, at the moment they’re felt matter greatly. That is why time and patience must play a much greater role in making better long term decisions. That is what the Clintons have done. It has worked for them and I expect them to continue to do employ that tactic for success.

    For the years ahead, I want her to be there, where she has always been, on my side, with as much power that she can get so she can help me and my family. That is the same reason that I wanted her to be in the most powerful position there is for a politician. For those who are so convinced that she is a victim, an abuse victim, because you feel like one…she, and Bill, have battled back every time they were attacked…not immediately, mind you, nor obviously and agressively…sometimes taking hits to the body while protecting the head… but when opportunity knocks, they have always been there to open the door. And they haven’t only opened it for themselves.

    Rope-a-dope. Look it up.

  51. If Senator Clinton was merely lying against the ropes taking body hits, I would be right there with you, 100%. But she’s doing more than that. She’s going beyond the call of duty, she’s telling people that they should support Obama (when she knows what a danger he is to America), she’s attacking PUMAs, she is failing me as a constituent.

    Look, I haven’t truly decided whether or not I’ll be able to support her again. It really is up to her. But I haven’t seen anything in the past few months (with the important exception of not attacking Governor Palin) to indicate that she isn’t doing what she believes right now.

    She is putting her party before her country, which is her choice. I just won’t do the same thing, because I believe her party is over.

    I have great respect for Hillary Clinton, and appreciate the barriers she’s broken and the fights she’s fought. But I also realize that she’s a politician. She will not put me before herself. I understand that, and accept it. I understand the same of Sarah Palin, John McCain, Barack Obama (especially), Joe Biden, or any other politician. I don’t feel betrayed, used, cheap, dirty, stupid, or depressed. I feel angry at the threat I perceive to the country I love. I want to do whatever I can to stop it. Right now, that means ignoring Hillary Clinton and keeping my eye on the ball.

    I’m not condemning her, I’m not slamming the door, I’m not asking her for my contributions back. I am making a conscious decision to move past my personal loyalty to her if it’s needed to help my country or my state. I hope I don’t have to, but I can no longer waste my energy defending her actions or hoping for a miracle. If she isn’t working for it, neither am I. (I never like Mohammed Ali.)

    I know she made a promise to “work her heart out” for the nominee, but she also made a promise to me to fight till the end. One she didn’t keep. She broke it on the convention floor when they called for the votes from my state, and she didn’t let them vote. She gave my vote and 18 million others away. I didn’t care for that at all.

    I don’t feel like I’ve betrayed Hillary. I’ve given her support, blogged for her, taken abuse for supporting her, been threatened, been called a racist, and donated more money by far that I have ever given a Presidential candidate before. But I will not become like an Obama supporter for her; blind to reality and ok with anything she does no matter what.

    The analogy of an abuse victim is an appropriate one not because we feel like victims; we are fighters. It is appropriate because abuse victims go back to their abusers and defend them, telling everyone that it’ll never happen again, and the abuser is sorry, and really isn’t a bad person if you just give them a chance. Sound familiar?

    And if you don’t think it took courage to air these feelings, you are sadly mistaken.

  52. It’s amazing how after 40 some years of being a democrat I feel like I am seeing daylight for the first time. My values go a little deeper than a loud voice and a fist bump.

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