W.O.M.A.N.

~~ Posted by Kenosha Marge, August 8, 2008

(With additional comments by GRL)

I sat down to write a little essay about misogyny. I intended nothing too profound and nothing that hasn’t been said before, just something that hadn’t been said by me. I thought perhaps, as had happened before, that if I put something down in writing I would better understand it.

Looking back I wonder that I was so surprised by the brutality of the misogynistic attacks on the first woman to be a viable candidate for president. Sexism is such a part of daily life that few of us stop to think about it. A snort of disgust here, a sniff of resentment there, and on with the business of living our lives.

Older women have had a lifetime of watching incompetent and under qualified younger men come out of no where and snap up the best jobs. I’ve worked in offices where the big man couldn’t find his ass with either hand if his secretary hadn’t pointed it out to him. He got the big paycheck, the power, the glory and she got to do all the work while supporting the dunce. She also got to be taken out to lunch once a year during the week of April 22 – 28 for Secretary’s Day.

While fooling around googling sexism I came across this sentence: “On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day.” I reread it just to make sure that I was reading it correctly. Their husbands or boyfriends murder three women every day.

This is happening here in the USA. It’s happening here so going all C.J. Craig about the awfulness of how Saudi Arabia or some other foreign country treats it’s women seems a tad hypocritical. Unless we use the same logic we use to elect presidents; we may be bad but they’re worse. Feel better now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k30MOebDSww

The United States is not a safe place for women. It may be safer than elsewhere but we don’t live elsewhere. We live here. Here where every single day of the year more than 3 women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends.

President Clinton signed into public law the Violence Against Women Act of 1994 on September 13, 1994. VAWA was reauthorized in 2000 and signed into law by President George Bush on January 5, 2006. It will be up for reauthorization in 2010. Okay, that takes care of that.

Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. Four in 10 women at a veterans hospital reported being sexually assaulted while in the military. 7% of girls in grades 5-8 and 12% of girls in grades 9-12 said they had been sexually abused. Does this sound like a society that likes, respects or cares for women?

Gender trashing is epidemic, out in the open and unashamed. Women do it to other women. Men smirk and laugh while making malevolent sexist remarks on national television. It all seems part of the same underlying distain for women.

Cringe? Protest? What’s the matter sweetie can’t take a joke? Ya trying to play the victim? Laugh it up girls or the boys won’t think you’re a good sport.

Wish I could wave a magic wand and make it all go away. Wish I could make all the “isms” disappear as they should in any decent society. I wish busybodies would quit worrying about the sex lives of consenting adults. Homophobia isn’t any prettier than any other form of bigotry.

For the sake of my 7 granddaughters and my two lovely little great-granddaughters I wish my generation had done a better job of making a better world for them. I wish I could somehow keep them safe from all the ugliness that misogny will bring into their lives.

I am no smarter or any closer to the answers I sought then when I started this essay. I’ve learned some things. Some ugly, terrible things. I wish I was hopeful.

Because I don’t want to leave a bad taste in everyone’s mouth and since we women can always find a way to get through what we have to get through with humor I give you a song about women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIWpqSajYPM

****

GRL Adds:

This post hits home for me on so many levels.  For example, I trained a young man, only to see him get a promotion which I was in line for. He leap-frogged me, and I was forced to find another job to reach the level I should have reached in my former workplace.  As a temp, I literally bailed out a manager at Rolls Royce who screwed up the publication of a manual and who was even more dismissive of me after I did him the favor.

And then there is the concept of “comparable worth.” The idea has gone nowhere. Once in awhile you’ll hear how a stay-at-home mother is worth several hundred thousand dollars but, in reality, it’s more like $30,000 and that may be high.  As Liz Pulliam Weston of MSN says,  the “shocking truth” is that “Our society doesnt place a high dollar value on a homemaker’s work, and those who choose to stay home do so at their own economic peril. ”  Meanwhile, women earn what 80 cents for every dollar men earn.  Sure there are trade-off, choices which may contribute to this disparity.  But some of those choices have to be made because we don’t have the attitude toward supporting families and children that other countries have. (An interesting read on this subject here.)

Complacent young women these days may believe they’ve reached parity but reality hits them sooner or later.  But I’m afraid that something else is going on, too…that the violence and sexual messages against that are so prevalent and viral these days are being too easily accepted as “the norm.”  I’m afraid a lack of self-respect is just as deeply ingrained as it always was…

This campaign season has been a reality check for many of us who have beeing fighting for women’s rights for several decades. When you see NARAL and Planned Parenthood support an inexperienced guy who makes a habit of using and discarding people along the way, you have to wonder what has happened to the women leading these organizations.

They’ve gone soft, at a time we still need them to lead.

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61 Responses

  1. Really great post GRL. Misogyny and sexism are endemic which makes it that much easier for the Obama crowd to verbally assault us everyday. This election has been an eyeopener and terribly discouraging.

  2. Great thoughts, thanks for that. Women need to take a stand, and stop going along to get along, whenever they have an opportunity to make a statement. If there is a woman on your ballot in your state for President, vote for her. Yes, she probably won’t win; but if enough women start fighting for other women, maybe a message will be sent. It’s not all about a Woman’s Party or anything like that; it’s about sending a message to political leaders that we are sick of them and we’re not going to take it anymore.

    In the past, I’ve argued that voters should support the major parties, and not throw votes away on Ralph Nader, etc. But, no more. I am a disloyal Democrat, a dissenter, an independent voter who won’t collude in their electoral fraud.

    I signed a petition to get Cynthia McKinney on the ballot in my state, so I’ll have someone to vote for [she’s the green party candidate, but will be listed as an independent, because the bar is lower for that designation at present]. If she is on the ballot, she’ll get my vote. I don’t have a candidate I can support in either of the two major parties, and as a liberal, I can support McKinney’s clear record on human rights. It’s both a protest vote against both parties [but particularly my own FORMER party, the Democratic Party); it’s a vote for women; it’s a vote for a candidate of color; and it’s a vote for an expansion of our political system beyond the two OLIGARCHIES we currently have on offer, neither of which gives a damn about the rest of us.

    Cynthia McKinney:

    In 1851, in Akron, Ohio a former slave woman, abolitionist, and woman’s rights activist by the name of Sojourner Truth gave a speech now known as “Ain’t I a Woman.” Sojourner Truth began her remarks, “Well children, where there is so much racket, there must be something out of kilter.” She then went on to say that even though she was a woman, no one had ever helped her out of carriages or lifted her over ditches or given her a seat of honor in any place. Instead, she acknowledged, that as a former slave and as a black woman, she had had to bear the lash as well as any man; and that she had borne “thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother’s grief, none but Jesus heard me! And Ain’t I a woman?” Finally, Sojourner Truth says, “If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back, and get it right side up again!”

    As it was in 1851, so too it is in 2008. There is so much racket that we, too, know something is out of kilter. In 1851, the racket was about a woman’s right to vote. In 1848, just a few years before Sojourner uttered those now famous words, “Ain’t I a Woman?” suffragists met in Seneca Falls, New York and issued a declaration….

    Cynthia McKinney Deserves Your Support,
    Obama Does Not
    Wednesday, 02 July 2008

    Cynthia McKinney Accepts the Nomination of the Green Party

    http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&

  3. I think PUMAs represent the idea that folks no longer look toward failed self-appointed leaders to work for or fight for individual rights.

    I agree that this has been terribly discouraging, but if you read on page 2 of that last article we posted, you’ll see there are WOMEN and MEN who stand on principles. With their efforts, our efforts and justice on our side – the DNC and all the others will understand fully what “it ain’t over till it’s over” means.

    Keep up the good fight!
    PUMA!

    (Here is an excerpt from that article on http://www.CountUsOut.WordPress.Com :
    Since July, Obama staffers say they’ve reached out to Clinton delegates by phone and email and have invited them to community events and local platform meetings.

    Yet some delegates say the process has left them bruised.

    Awilda Marquez, a Colorado delegate, said she feels like his campaign has been dismissive of the Clinton supporters.

    “They say they don’t need us … I don’t spend 30 seconds a day thinking about that,” Marquez said. “When I see a top woman being called a whore and a she-goat … I can’t forget that.”)

  4. Go Here and Watch Cynthia McKinney Grill Don Rumsfeld at a hearing. They got her for it; she was smeared under a set up. But you gotta know they did it because of this…

    http://www.runcynthiarun.org/

  5. Also, just want to make it clear that I still support Hillary Clinton, and I too demand a roll call vote in Denver. Moreover, I’m furious that the DNC has pushed this nightmarish narcissist as the Democratic nominee, and engaged in electoral fraud, disenfranchisement and violations of DNC rules to do so. But, if Clinton is not the nominee, or on the ticket this time, my vote is going with Cynthia McKinney. I’ll never vote for Barack Obama; and I won’t vote for John McCain either–the Military Commissions Act was a step too far for me. I respect that everyone has to make their own choice on McCain, and on what they will do with their voice in November. But, I’ve decided on McKinney. Just sayin. ;o}

  6. My mother is 86 with a mind still intact, sharp and intelligent, but her bones brittle….that’s another story. She knows full well how women have been treated. When she divorced my father in the early 60’s, she had maintained his business, and functioned as the CFO. She built his credit by never missing a payment or being late with a creditor, business or personal. It was she who did all of it. When she divorced, the credit card companies took away her charge cards because women were not allowed to have them in just their name. When she went to work in private industry, she was the office manager who trained her new superiors; he made the big bucks and she did not. At the beginning of Senator Clinton’s run, she predicted how difficult it would be for a woman to become president. I didn’t think so; she was right; I was wrong. She is a FDR Democrat and taught me the same. For the first time in her voting history, she will be voting Republican. If you knew her, you would know how profound and stunning that is. I will be voting accordingly.

  7. What is very disappointing to me is the feminist website that I used to surf at did speak out against the misogyny Hillary faced.

    They supported Obama.

    I am guessing this was the case because it is website for younger feminists, and as intelligent as they are, they do not have the experience of seeing the same song and dance of misogyny that older women have experienced all their lives.

    I think many young women truly believe that older women are just bitter and dismiss them, instead of giving older women credit that they see the same misogyny in the Obama campaign or media in general.

  8. Great post Kenosha Marge and GRL! Unfortunately it is still so true. I cannot believe that we are still so far away from tru equality in this country in 2008!

    It’s extremely sad when you look at the statistics. Yes the other “isims” are also deplorable yet somehow they seem to be making more progress than the women’s movement. It is more socially unacceptable to be racist than sexist becuse IMO sexisim runs through every race.

    Women of every race, religion, nationality ect. are considered by most as simply “less” than men. It is a shame and one cannot help but think of what all the famous phyciatrists would say.

    Basicly I think men (not all men just the ones determined to stay neandrathals) are afraid of women because we have certain strengths and powers that they do not. I’m sure Frued or someone would be much more technical but most theories run through this common thread. (Hope this makes sense it’s early and my cup is dry. More Coffee! Less Obama!)

    The fact is that we women do share some of the blame as others have said here we need to stop going along to get along. Women have a tendency to smooth things over and try to simply put up with a lot because we know we are stong enough to do so while some of our male counter-parts well, let’s just say, not so much.

    This has been going on since the beginning of human existence. Men cut women out of the bible as much as possible and it has continued on and on. We must stop being complacent about it.

    If this election has taught us anything it is that we are not anywhere near as “advanced” as a society as we like to think we are.

    CQ

  9. I think many young women have their heads up their backsides. Most of the inadequate progress has been accomplished by the old bitter women they dismiss so cavalierly.

    And like you say, they do not have the experience of seeing the same song and dance of misogyny that older women have experienced all their lives.

    Time comes when women wake up to the fact that what little “respect” and/or attention they received was more for a pretty face, a nice rack or a delectable posterior. Once that’s gone, gravity sucks ladies, many of the male population has no use for us.

    There are reasons why there are terms like “trophy wife”.

    This is in no way meant to be aimed at the millions of good, decent men who’s liking,respect and love has nothing to do with how deep is the cleavage or how tight are the jeans.

  10. I forgot to post what my good friend always says about her husband or any man when a complaint is made. “He can’t help it he’s a man!”

    While this is obviously true in some ways I refuse to believe they cannot “help it’. i understand where she is coming from and all. She is basicly making fun of the fact that they like to be thought of as superior but in fact often fall short but I think when we allow ourselves to be resigned to this stuff we are part of the problem. (Sorry Jer if you are reading this. Not hacking on you girlfriend just wondering how to find a better way!)

    CQ

  11. “Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. Four in 10 women at a veterans hospital reported being sexually assaulted while in the military. 7% of girls in grades 5-8 and 12% of girls in grades 9-12 said they had been sexually abused. Does this sound like a society that likes, respects or cares for women?

    This reminded me of Ntozake Shange’s poem, For No Immediate Cause. Link below – not easy reading.

    http://faculty.pittstate.edu/~knichols/wpoets.html#shange

  12. BMC and Count Us Out…

    Thanks for comments and links!!
    COU–I was planning to ad you to my blogroll this AM….and am doing it now!

  13. kenoshaMarge,

    You “know” me and my sensibilities… I obviously am a Hillary supporter, and more, a vehement supporter of gender equality. AND, I “know” you: a seriously fair and very right-minded PERSON.

    So, please, PLEASE, do not give up on us men. In your heart of hearts, you know that most of us men (but, to be sure, not all of us) are on your side. For my part, I do everything I can in my small personal world to stick up for the rights and equality of EVERYONE, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

    I know that this missive of mine is probably wasted on a person of your obvious worth and virtue. I just detected in your post a little dismissive attitude regarding men and I had to write.

    Love you as much as anyone who never “met” you,

    -Michael (-MS)

  14. Note: Speaking for myself, all men are not the problem…both sexes are still being “trained” to stick with stereotypes and to revert.

    It takes brave people of both sexes to buck the system! PUMA!

  15. GRL,

    I forgot; thanks for the reminder: PUMA!!!

    -MS

  16. I thought that kenoshaMarge was very clear about what types of men who she was talking about in her post from the last paragraph:

    This is in no way meant to be aimed at the millions of good, decent men who’s liking,respect and love has nothing to do with how deep is the cleavage or how tight are the jeans.

  17. qaz,

    I agree. But that comment posted before I saw it (and after MY comment). Believe me, I have been a fan of kenoshaMarge for quite some time, and I really, REALLY intended no bad feelings. Just to be clear…

    -MS

  18. My oldest granddaughter and I were talking about how her generation of women does not seem to respect themselves.
    For some reason they seem to believe acting as sexual objects rather than human beings of value is the way to go.
    Where did all the work previous generations did to try to improve working enviroments and living enviroments for women go?
    Why is the devaluation of women allowed and accepted more now than before?
    We tried to make things better for the next generation of women and what are they doing to make it better for the generation after them?
    If respect is not earned and demanded it is not given.

    COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  19. Somewhere along the way women’s rights movements got tossed in with the “bra burners” and became fodder for sexist jokes!

    Fact is that although I definitely believe in support garments (even more necessary these days lol! Yes gravity does suck!) the Bra Burners had the right ideas and principals behind their actions. Unfortunately the rest of society chose to see only the superficial side of it. Still tru today when MOST talk about equality and womwn’s rights. They poo poo it off as a bunch of “Mommies who want free daycare”!

    Hell I may just have to burn one of my old bras today on the principal!

    CQ

  20. Everything that kenoshaMarge stated in her original article are things that I have seen in the media or experienced. As women we need to be able to state exactly the examples of misogyny that is happening, not tiptoe around it. It is difficult to hear. I know because it is difficult to experience over and over also.

    You are more sensitive to it ParkSlopeVoter because you are not one of the types of men/people doing this. But I see reality in her posts not dismissiveness.

  21. qaz,

    Let’s just say that I’m sensitive, period. But I appreciate your thoughts, even while reserving my right to not be 100% in agreement with them. And, as I said above, I am a fan…

    -MS

  22. To ParkSlopeVoter: This is not my blog, but you are welcome to my opinion nevertheless. “I just detected in your post a little dismissive attitude regarding men”…did you read the post? Statistics are quoted regarding murder and rape. Crimes committed by men against women. This post was not about men. It was about women, and how they are treated by men. It wasn’t written to curry favour with men, or to explain the obvious to men. Worrying about how men are going to react to what women say and do is just part of the problem in trying to become free from male dominance. I think KenoshaMarge and GRL are intelligent, articulate and probably not worried that a man reading this post will find it “a little dismissive”.

  23. Ms. Marple,

    Allow me to take great offense at what you wrote. You are belligerent and completely non-discriminating when it comes to evaluating people. I pride myself on being completely “blind” when it comes to a person’s gender, race, sexual orientation, etc.

    That DOESN’T mean, however, that I’m a P.C. idiot. I can recognize unbridled hatred and and idiocy when I see it: Ms. Marple, that would be you. So, GFY!

    -MS

  24. Park Slope, I in no way meant to denigrate the men like you who support, respect and love the women in their life and women in general. Sometimes when I get up on my soapbox or mount my high-horse I paint with too broad a brush. If so, it was unintentional.

    And please folks, we really all do agree about this subject. Let’s not let our ire get in the way of understanding and helping each other.

    Park Slope is one of the good guys Ms. Marple. And I think good guys are especially sensitive to this subject because they find the men that do these awful things so repulsive that to in any way be compared to them is insulting beyond belief. (My significant other has articulated exactly that to me when my rants go too far. And sometimes, admittedly, they do.)

    I want to make it perfectly clear that I HATE, LOATHE, DEPISE all “isms” and all bigotry. I just hate, loathe and despise sexism more because it has touched me asa woman, as the mother of a daughter, as the grandmother of 7 granddaughters and the great-grandmother of 2 great and amazing great-granddaughters. The thought of anyone laying a hand on any of them… I can’t even articulate what I feel.

  25. Great post and to expand on it:

    SEXISM is the discrimination, devaluation, and abusive behavior (physical and verbal) and attitudes towards one sex (overwhelmingly female).

    MISOGYNY is the unfounded hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.

    SEXISM and MISOGYNY are learned behaviors.

    SEXISM and MISOGYNY are the root cause of all violence against women.

    About 1,400 women are beaten to DEATH every year by their husbands or boyfriends in the United States (an average of MORE THAN THREE EVERY DAY).

    It is estimated that TWO to FOUR MILLION women are battered each year. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/13/content_7779620.htm

    EVERY MINUTE 4 to 8 women are beaten by their male partners.

    EVERY HOUR 240 to 480 women are beaten by their male partners.

    EVERY DAY 5,760 to 11,520 women are beaten by their male partners.

    EVERY WEEK 40,320 to 80,640 women are beaten by their male partners.

    EVERY MONTH 172,800 to 345,600 women are beaten by their male partners.

    In comparison, there were 2,640 anti-black crimes in 2006 (CNN, Lou Dobbs, May 23, 2008).

    These violence-against-women numbers are horrendous and everyone should be outraged. Where is the outrage? But there is too little outrage, and too much acceptance. Violence against women is such an ignored issue because women are not valued in this sexist society.

    With two to four million battered women per year compared to 2,640 anti-black racial crimes per year, it is obvious that sexism is the more severe problem. If there were two to four million anti-black racial crimes per year, there would be endless massive riots throughout the country and Marshall Law declared.

    Anyone who finds misogynistic, sexist actions or comments acceptable or worse yet, funny, should be held accountable as an accessory to violence against women.

  26. kenoshaMarge,

    I just want to thank you SO MUCH for standing up for me. You’re one of the good “guys” as well. And, your significant other sounds like one, too.

    Muchas gracias!

    -MS

  27. KenoshaMarge,

    By the way, you “get up on your high horse or mount [your] soapbox” anytime, as far as I’m concerned. I know where you’re coming from!

    -MS

  28. “Worrying about how men are going to react to what women say and do is just part of the problem in trying to become free from male dominance.”

    Exactly, Ms. Marple. The discussion gets turned back to men. And, btw, I did not find any unbridled hatred in your comment.

  29. kenoshaMarge, GRL, ParkSlopeVoter, qaz, caffinequeen, Ms. Marple, and the rest of the posters,

    I’m glad to see this kind of discussion happening. I am fairly new to the world of political blogs and while i understand that the blog seems to an outlet for one particular viewpoint, part of the problem for me (other than outrageous run-on sentences…) is this tendency to paint with a broad brush, to the point of dabbling in chauvinism. Perhaps this comes from assuming that your readers are all on the same page as you are, perhaps not. Yeah, from reading your blog and comments thoroughly I can sometimes tell that you aren’t aiming these comments towards “the good ones”, but mostly I see little aiming at all…

    (I can’t help to think what those famous psychiatrists would say about that)….

    …Just spewing.

    Again, i realize that rants are what blogs are for, i’m just giving some feedback. If you truly want to change some minds (including this Obama supporter’s), then keep in mind its not the dabbling i object to, just the size of the brush (oh my, i hope those famous psychiatrists aren’t reading this). I don’t want my objections to “The way you’re saying it vs. What you’re saying” to sound like the semantics arguement i get from my son about how the his clothes aren’t actually “in the middle” of the floor like I claim they are.

    One question to clear up my raging case of ignorance: Aside from the “sweetie” comment, what has Obama himself said and done to deserve your sexist charges?

    Thanks for the W.O.M.A.N song, the poem, and the video of CJ (good lord, she is hotter than Paris Hilton when she’s so focused and angry like that!…you PUMA’s should try that!) 😉 Again…just kidding ma’am.

    Well, since i’m a stay at home father, i’ve got to get back to watching the mailbox. I just KNOW my check for 30 grand will be arriving any minute…

    Thanks again for your time,

    Sincerely,

    Jesse “Kermie” Katrencik

  30. Soooo…Just wondering: Does this mean that Edwards gets moved over to the “bad” pile when you’re aiming your rants?

  31. Jesse,

    The matter of John Edwards infidelity is between him and his wife and family and him and his conscience. I have no dog in the fight.

    Since I do like and respect Elizabeth Edwards I am very sad for the pain this must be causing her.

  32. Marge,
    I agree completely.

  33. It wasn’t written to curry favour with men, or to explain the obvious to men. Worrying about how men are going to react to what women say and do is just part of the problem in trying to become free from male dominance.

    Ms Marple, I also agree with this sentiment that you posted.
    You were more to the point than I was.

    kenoshaMarge, I understand where you are coming from also. You want to be sensitive to the men posting here who are not sexist. However, nothing you posted was offensive in the least. If women can’t even post the truth, then what can we post?

    kenoshaMarge stated: Sometimes when I get up on my soapbox or mount my high-horse I paint with too broad a brush.

    Why on earth are you apologizing for writing an article stating facts and being made to feel like you were on your high horse? You weren’t on a soapbox. You wrote an excellent article that stated your valid opinion.

  34. Ms. Marple, I agree with your statement that KenoshaMarge and GRL are intelligent, articulate and (my emphasis) DEFINITELY not worried that a man reading this post will find it “a little dismissive”. They are preaching to the choir. It comes off as the kind of chauvinism of the old guard of feminism who refuses to acknowledge positive changes that have occurred. Belittling younger feminists in the process and insisting on the backsliding they KNOW has occurred since they were young.
    The reason that I am home with my children is that my wife, working in the same field as I, had a higher salary by a large factor. And I am not alone, not in my small, middle class neighborhood, nor in my circle of friends around the country. Not by a long shot.
    I am MUCH more optimistic about gender relations, even those between heterosexual and homosexual americans, than I am about racial relations. At least in my corner of the country. Every place i have worked around here, when people’s guards go down, the racists come out of the woodwork, both men and women. If i had a nickle for every hippochristian man or woman who tried to tell me a nigger joke, I could pay someone to walk your dogs for you. In these same places, the social obligation to protect women from domestic violence (even if only retribution after the fact ) is strong. But I can’t say what happens behind closed doors. Many of the men I’ve worked with revered their wives to a point that frankly made me squirm a little. Resentment of women of stature in the workplace may not be progressing as much, primarily because of the perception (not unfounded, but i’m sure exagerrated) that women and women-owned companies are given advantages in getting some positions and contracts because of their status as a minority. But every competent female boss helps change that attitude, and there are more and more men and women who experience such a person in the workplace.
    Things are getting better. Through each generation. Ask around, don’t just look down your noses past your sagging bodies, that, let’s be honest here, ONLY WOMEN care about. Real men know that your whining about losing gravity’s battle is nothing but self hatred. Just because our brains are programmed to glance off at some perkiness bouncing down the sidewalk every now and then doesn’t mean we don’t know true beauty when we see it. Grow the hell up already. Good night.

  35. They are preaching to the choir. It comes off as the kind of chauvinism of the old guard of feminism who refuses to acknowledge positive changes that have occurred.

    That’s the point, things have NOT changed all that much.

    I have to support Ms Marple here and her post because I agree with what she has stated.

  36. “Things are getting better. Through each generation. Ask around, don’t just look down your noses past your sagging bodies, that, let’s be honest here, ONLY WOMEN care about. Real men know that your whining about losing gravity’s battle is nothing but self hatred. Just because our brains are programmed to glance off at some perkiness bouncing down the sidewalk every now and then doesn’t mean we don’t know true beauty when we see it. Grow the hell up already. Good night.”

    Self-hatred? Oh, please. Apparently trashing democracy is something our little brains can’t tolerate…And misogyny in the media hasn’t reared its ugly head. An Obama giving Hillary the finger is real progress. Sorry, your last comment reveals your true attitudes. Stereotypical and insulting.

  37. I dunno, i just watched that clip of Obama “giving Hillary the finger” and it was about as misogynistic as Bill Clinton’s “Fairytale” comment was racist. Which is to say, not much at all. And I am not a fan of Bill Clinton after how he behaved. Dick Cheney telling Pat Leahy to go FHS…THAT was worth noting, not either or these two media distractions.

    Stereotypical and insulting? Oh please. I know this wasn’t your comment, but it reveals the true attitudes of the poster:

    “Time comes when women wake up to the fact that what little “respect” and/or attention they received was more for a pretty face, a nice rack or a delectable posterior. Once that’s gone, gravity sucks ladies, many of the male population has no use for us.”

    Seriously, Stereotypical and Insulting. And yes, self-hating.

    I am still waiting for your list of Obama’s sexist deeds, other than the Sweetie comment. If the “finger” is all you’ve got, then let me know. Having a 24 year run of Bush’s and Clintons trashes democracy more than anything Obama has done.

  38. While I do try to be sensitive to the feelings of others I do not and will not accept or condone misogyny whenever I see it or hear it. Men and women of integrity know that misogyny is rampant in this country and that it is the basis for all the horror that the victims of it endure.

    Millions of women saw Obama brush his shoulder, scrape his shoe and heard the song in the background, about “99 problems and ain’t none of them bitches”. Not sexist? Don’t be silly. Of course it was. Because it was directed at Hillary Clinton it was considered acceptable.

    Don’t bother to wait for a list of Obama’s sexist deeds. I don’t have to nor want to prove anything to you. That you support this man and would scurry over to try to pick a fight on a sight that not only doesn’t support him, but also loathes him, tells me all I want to know about you.

    The time for such discussions is past. At least for me. I know exactly what I think of Obama. I. Will. Not. Vote. For. Him. Under. Any. Circumstances.

    I was trying to articulate MY thoughts and feelings about misogyny. Talking about Obama with me is a waste of your time and energy.

  39. You tell him Kenosha Marge!

    Seriously Jesse if you want to see the list it’s widely available on the net. Also if you don’t like the opinion expressed why spend so much time and energy here?

    I’ll tell you why. Because you are deliberately trying to piss us off and guess what? It’s working. Satisfied? Good then go back to a place that spews your brand of crap!

    CQ

  40. k-mar,
    I don’t know, Ma’am…Haven’t seen and can’t find the video of the described brush-off, but i’ll keep looking. In general, If a disparaging comment is directed at ONE specific woman that you know personally, for good reason, I don’t see that as being insulting to all women. If you aimlessly toss a disparaging comment to a nebulous group of men, then i might perceive it as insulting to all men. Is it the word bitch and the embrace and use of the word bitch by younger feminists that has you insulting them like you do, saying they have their heads up their backsides? Will they only become real feminists when their bodies start to sag and their men and workplaces abandon them?

    If you’re not going to list his deeds, then have fun preaching to your choir, because that’s all that you’re doing. Al the comments i’ve heard in person about Obama being a muslim, Obama being sworn in on the Koran, Obama being part of a sleeper terrorist cell,and on and on and on, not to mention the disgusting emails i’ve received, have not prevented me one bit from opening my mouth to these misinformed people. Not a waste of my time and energy at all.

    Scurry over? I found this sight fairly accidentally, as a link at the bottom of news story, I think from FOX news (yeah, i know…) as linked to me from Google. The idea that Hillary supporters were actually considering, after 8 years of Dubya, voting for McCain had me dumfounded. That is why I am here. It was the Odinga 50-50 split article posted here that originally got to me, and i still have not heard sufficient answers to my questions on that article. I guess preaching to the choir and trying to strip Donna Brazile’s superdelegate status is more important.

    Pick a fight? When you’re lobbing out insults under some cutsie little moniker because you think that no one who will be offended is in your little room listening to you, well then, YES, that’s the kind of cowardice i want to confront.

    Your attitude that men throw away women when their bodies start to sag is insulting to all of us.

    Sincerely,

    Jesse Katrencik

  41. Sorry for the little winking smily face, supposed to just parentheses

  42. Yeah the truth offends you does it jesse? Get used to it!
    Also you should read this blog before you accuse them of the muslim smears etc. I have as of yet NEVER seen any such postings on this blog. The fact is that anytime that Obama is critisized his cult-worrshippers start to scream racisim, smears, blah, blah, blah ad nausem.

    No one really cares if he is a muslim just they want him to be honest. I think they care more that he sat there and listened to Rev. Wright fwho is more of a racist than anyone posting here for 20 years. I think people do not believe that he does not hold those same beliefs at least to some extent.

    We don’t care that he’s black either. We do care though that he thinks that and that alone should give him a free ride to the highest position in our country. We do care that he acts as though that should excuse him from answering real questions.

    We do care that he has flip-flopped on our civil liberties, off-shore drilling and oh, so many other things. If it’s a debate you want i suggest maybe you should have run for office instead of this fraud who thinks he is above having to answer to anybody and thinks he is already president when in fact there is a long way to go between now and November.

    I don’t even know why I am bothering with this discussion as you are obviously in dire need of de-programming to get this cult out of your system.

    CQ

  43. CaffineQueen,
    I was not accusing any of the commenters on this site of the Obama muslim smears, Ma’am. I said, that i heard them “In person” and thru emails. I was giving an example of how answering the smears was not a waste of my time and energy. It was the one article here about Odinga that got to me.

    “No one really cares if he is a muslim just they want him to be honest”

    Uh..WHAT??? Maybe in your neck of the woods but not around here. They care very much that he is a Foreign born, Black Muslim Terrorist. I shit you not, I hear that kind of stuff on a weekly basis. Maybe where you live the attutides towards african americans is more civil than the attitudes towards women, but its not like that everywhere. Thats the point i’m trying to get across to you. Compare that to the gender-based negative comments I’ve heard about Hillary and the ratio is probably 50 to 1. Maybe it gets portrayed differently in the media, but in person, thats what I hear.

    And REALLY, if anyone acted like they deserved the presidency it was Hillary. As did Dubya before her.

    You might be bothering with this discussion because it gives you another opportunity to feel good by calling me a cultist, or Obama-bot or what ever the latest term is for people you dissagree with. Jesse is good enough for me.

    I did not come here from another site, CQ, so i have nowhere to scurry back to. And i am not involved in the Obama campaign other than to get an Obama sticker from moveon dot org. Which i promptly quit after one day when i found out what they originally wanted folks to “move on” from. Bill Clinton is not an asset (close, tho) and it was Hillary’s continued political relationship with him prevented me from voting for her. If he’d sat quietly in the back seat the way Bush Sr. has, then things would’ve been different for Hillary. To be fair, things would’ve have turned out better for Dubya if he’d have listened to some of his fathers advice.

    Sincerely,
    Jesse Katrencik

  44. Please! Hillary never had her own seal made up. nor did she have the word President stiched onto her chair. people in her campaign never ran around calling her “President Clinton” and she was by far a much more a genuine down to earth personality than Obama has ever been.

    As to you’re opinion that I like calling you a cultist or an Obamabot well you’re wrong about that too. I would much prefer to call you a fellow democrat but unfortunately you are part of the new “Obama Party” so I will not be doing that. Actually I would really prefer not to deal with you at all. I’m a bit cranky about your comments and often prone to forget things in the morning. (Like the rule Don’t Feed The Trolls)

    Bill Clinton was 3 times the president of Bush 1 & 2 combined. The only 2 term Democrat in 40 years, left office with a surplus after wiping out a huge deficit and oh yes he actually had a coalition of voters comprised of pretty everybody that wasn’t a republican unlike your guy who can still can

  45. OOOPS!

    ….who still cannot close the deal with his own party let alone the entire country!

    Plus another thing here sexisim is more prevelant because it exists against women of all races and cultures. That’s a lot more people than any one race being discriminated against.

    CQ

  46. Bill Clinton is not an asset (close, tho) and it was Hillary’s continued political relationship with him prevented me from voting for her. If he’d sat quietly in the back seat the way Bush Sr. has, then things would’ve been different for Hillary.

    I disagree, Bill was an asset to Hillary.

  47. para bmc

    Thanks for much for the links about McKinney. I’m glad not to be the only one posting these! It has been a little lonely on the PUMA and pro-HRC blogs as a Green and McKinney supporter. The reception has been mostly warm, but not always, depending on the blog.

    paz a todos

  48. ea,

    I’m sorry if some have not been as supportive of your choice as you wished. PUMA in and of itself to me means that we will not vote for Obama and will follow through with everything we have to stop the coup going on in the Democratic Party.

    Some of us will just leave the top of the ballot blank, other will vote Green, some will vote Nader and some like me may vote for McCain purely as a protest vote. (And quite honestly I think a McCain Administration might be what it takes to force the corrupt and cowardly Democrats in Washington to do their damn job.)

    I know that some find my decision repugnant. Quite honestly, so do I. We will all do as we find best suites our issues and our conscience. I too would vote for McKinney if I didn’t want to poke a stick in the eye of the Democratic Party. Here in Wisconsin especially for what they did to Debra Bartoshevich.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-delegate-dispatchjul27,0,928278.story

    We may not all be taking the same roads but we all have the same goal.

    And I remember the words of George Carlin:

    “The reason I talk to myself is that I’m the only one whose answers I accept.”

  49. NOTE: I’ll chime in with this. My first course is to stay at home. If Obama looks like he might take NM, I will reconsider a vote for McCain…

  50. Grl,

    That’s why I am going to vote for McCain if Obama is the Democratic nominee. Wisconsin was very close with Kerry and I believe that this will be even closer. Even if I hadn’t all ready been incensed with the Democratic Party about voter disenfranchisement, delegate stealing, rampant misogyny and back stabbing of one Democrat by another, the nonsense with Debra Bartoshevich would make me poke and prob them anyway. Many reasons and all telling me that I don’t want Obama to win Wisconsin.

  51. CQ,
    Hillary did one better than having her own seal made up (Obama’s seal is pretty ridiculous but won’t change how i vote), she kept her own Trophy Husband.

    Trolls, CQ? More name-calling? The way I see it, I’m the one who stumbled thru a web-link to YOUR lair under the bridge, not the other way around. I admit to a case of the cranks myself, as some of my posts were made during periods of toddler-induced sleeplesness. I do apologize for causing your cranks by baiting you with some of my comments. I suppose my tactics in trying to get racists to articulate their views in person doesn’t work as well with feminists over the internet.

    “Bill Clinton was 3 times the president of Bush 1 & 2 combined.”

    I AGREE, CQ. I would even go so far as to say 4-5 times, in terms of his policies and acheivements. However, the surplus, while impressive, was the product of a booming tech economy and I am reluctant to give him credit for that.

    “yes he actually had a coalition of voters comprised of pretty everybody that wasn’t a republican”

    Again, CQ, I agree. And how did Bill repay that coalition at the end of his presidency? By completely embarrasing us and effing it up for his VP, his wife and the nation. Bill had a choice to resign when caught with his hands in the cigar box and let Gore take charge, or go on national tv, wag his finger at us and pretend he was more important than all of it. Which one did he choose? Right. That’s why in 4 years, after the PUMAs have helped elect Senator McCain, I at least hope to see Hillary Rodham, not Hillary Clinton, running against whoever McCain’s VP turns out to be. While Bill roams Arkansas, “trolling” for bimbos from the back of a state police car.

    Jesse Katrencik

  52. Hillary Clinton for president ’08.

  53. Jesse Katrencik;

    IMO it is YOU and the Oama supporters who must be racist not us. i mean one could easily deduce that you are only voting for him because he’s black right/ It’s just as ridiculous when applied to either side of this debate.

    You assume we are all racists because we say we won’t vote for him well that implies to me that you are voting for him because of race scince you use that almost exclusively as your reasoning that we are racists you must be thinking that way because you base your own decisions on race alone right?

    Idiot! Yes there are people who will or will not vote Obama based soley on race but i resent you deciding that we could not possibly base our decision on othger things like oh, I don’t know electability, flip-flopping, arrogance, Rezco, Wright, Auchi, Odinga, Larry Sinclair, his absolute refusal to be questioned like other candidates. Any question he does not like is immediately met with charges of racisim or mcCain surragcy as if he is so perfect and above the rest of us we should not dare to ever question him. PLEASE!

    This guy is nothing more than a FUCKING FRAUD! End of story!

    CQ

  54. CQ,
    I said that you (as a group) were feminists and that it was my mistake to try and harrangue these posters into articulating their true beliefs the way i would a racist around here (Western PA/Ohio). I am not assuming, and i believe not stating in my posts that i think you (PUMAs, McCain voters) are all racists. You are feminists, thats pretty clear. Have i heard people say they are not voting for Obama because he’s a nigger? Yup, but NOWHERE near this blog, got it? And not by women who’ve described themselves as feminists. That reminds me do you have some cutsie degrading term i can use for women who aren’t feminists? What do you call them when you think they’re not listening?

    What raised my interest in this site when i found it was the attitude among Hillary supporters, that a vote for McCain was better, or at least more paletable, than a vote for Obama. That is the attitude i am trying to understand and change. The Odinga article was the only article i saw here that had me questioning the racial fears and motivations of the author. And i’m over that (we Obamabots must have short attention spans from too much CNN and not enough blogging).

    As for your list of reasons to not vote for Obama, lets compare them with McCain and Clinton. Flip-Flopping? Check. Arrogance? Check. Exploiting religion for political gain? Check. Fishy financial dealings and questionable ties to scumbags? Check. Odinga? I don’t even know what to say about that story.

    Now Larry Sinclair and the birth certificate controversy? I’ll tell you straight up if either one of those is true and Obama is out of the race, i’m voting for Clinton. Why? Because either Clinton or Obama are a better choice than McCain.

    That leaves us with the first item on your list: Electability. This surely means different things when applied to different candidates. What does it mean to you when applied to McCain? What does it mean to you when applied to Clinton? How about Obama? Now, I suppose overcoming a 20 point deficit in the polls to defeat your primary opponent might improve a candidates electability scores? No? How about raising more money? No? Yeah, you might be right, those are just probably because the media turned him into a rock star and brainwashed us dumbasses in the process, turning us into Obamabots, who can only see women as a sweeties or a bitches.

    Any question he does not like is immediately met with charges of racism? Sounds like an gross exaggeration. Frankly, I didn’t even understand the furor over the New Yorker cover and was dissapointed that Obama commented the way he did. But again, not a reason to vote for McCain.

    Jesse Katrencik

  55. NOTE: This site has never advocated voting for McCain.

  56. Doesn’t mean you’re not helping to elect him.

  57. Nobody here owes you an explanation Jesse for why they are voting for McCain over Obama.

  58. Jeses says: “What raised my interest in this site when i found it was the attitude among Hillary supporters, that a vote for McCain was better, or at least more paletable, than a vote for Obama. That is the attitude i am trying to understand and change. ”

    You are trying to “change” our minds? No wonder you’re supporting Obama. Arrogant and delusional.

    However you have successfully hijacked “MY” post so you should be happy. Just one more reason for me to loathe your dismal candidate and many of those who support him. This Jesse will be MY last communication with or to you. You simply are not worth my time or energy.

  59. Yes, kenoshaMarge, trying to change your minds about throwing your vote away out of spite. How undemocratic of me. Experienced senators like Hillary never do that kind of thing. Maybe i should try “surfing” for a blog that agrees with me so i can call out for Amens instead of “lurking” like a troll under my bridge, like cafinequeen likes to think. No thanks.

    After a long period of swearing off major party candidates out of disgust, I switched my registration to democrat to vote in the primary. It seems many of your readers are headed in the other direction. I know that that kind of mindset is hard to change, but nonetheless, still worth my time and energy. However, I’ll leave you and your PUMA-bots alone for now. Enjoy your choir.

    Arrogance and delusion are what lost the primary for your more qualified, more experienced, more popular candidate. Can I get an Amen on that? Didn’t think so.

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